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Report 1407
Report #1407 Skillset: Nihilism Skill: Thralls Org: Nihilists Status: Completed Nov 2015 Furies' Decision: Approved for solution 2. Due to the way mob attacks work, option C isn't particularly viable (at least, not without running into balance issues), but I'd be interested in a report for separate and active angel/demon balances. Problem: The aim of this report is to make guardian thralls more reliable and easier to use in combat. Since these are fairly minor "quality of life" changes, I'm including them here as a list in an effort not to clutter the report system. The problems we are addressing are: #1 For quite some time, guardians in groups have had to use their thrall's ID numbers to order their personal one, and these ID numbers change with each summoning of the thrall. #2 Invest has an equilibrium cost that makes it a less viable option in combat. #3 Thralls do not attack immediately when ordered to, but are instead on an invisible timer that begins when they are summoned (like Wiccan fae). This makes it difficult to use pact powers through thralls in combos. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: A) The syntax THRALL (such as ORDER THRALL KILL ) immediately targets that guardian's personal thrall. B) Change INVEST to require equilibrium but not cost it. C) Thralls immediately fire off their first invested power (or two, if using HARROW/SCOURGE) when ordered to attack. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: A & B from Solution #1. 0 R: 0 Solution #3: A & C from Solution #1. Player Comments: ---on 11/12 @ 14:49 writes: I know there is a workaround for Problem #3 that Wiccan guilds have utilized for some time, but I'm assuming the point of these reports is to eliminate the need for workarounds, yes? If a solution to this problem is put in place, it should be applied to fae as well. ---on 11/13 @ 15:43 writes: I agree with A and B. B would be a significant usability increase that's really needed for Nihilists and Celestines. A question on C though, how do you envision it working? Do you mean that the timer will basically start at 0 after summoning, or that it will tick down while the thrall is paused, then stay at 0 for the next time it's ordered? ---on 11/13 @ 19:35 writes: If I'm understanding you right (and please correct me if I'm not), yes, the timer would stay at 0 until the thrall is ordered to attack, and if paused, tick down to 0 again (so that you can't command passive and then attack right after to circumvent the timer). ---on 11/14 @ 02:22 writes: I'm not sure if I'm remembering wrongly or not, but wasn't there a report that wanted to make invest more usable mid combat? Something about making it easier to change the invests, I think. What was the decision on that report? I tried looking for it in the nihilist and celestine reports, but I couldn't find it - if I'm remembering wrongly, just ignore this comment, but if one of the older envoys can remember, it'd be nice to refer back to it and take a look. ---on 11/14 @ 04:55 writes: Timing a Demon is the worst. Absolute fucking worst (Deal with the profanity Xenthos, it was frustrating any time you wanted to branch out to new strategies). The report that Lerad brings up was probably 819 (which I put up for submission but never submitted). I was extremely partial to solution 1 (make angel/demons on their own timer like beasts), it certainly solves most of the issues, I took Enyalida's opinion on the matter, as it was mostly right. My plan was to re-submit the Report after the Overhaul, because I did not know where Nihilists/Celestines would stand. I still agree entirely with the problem stated and the solutions given. Both Nihilists/Celestines are one-trick classes. They do the same thing over and over again until it works, because it will eventually work, it just requires a bit of luck to get it off. It is far more effective to keep trying that one trick method of killing over and over until it eventually works instead of adapting towards the flow of combat. I know I am limited on space in the comments and there is far too much I could say on the subject, I will just say that Celestines/Nihilists are extremely stale guilds that have used the same strategies for 10 years because not much has changed and statistically, its better to roll the dice that your thrall attacks before they can cure aeon (or whatever strategy you go for over/over). ---on 11/14 @ 16:08 writes: Actually there were two reports of an attempt on this in the past, I don't recall them but I do know Thoros had an attempt at this first and Silvanus when they were Nihilist envoys with Yurika's backing of something like this for their respective archetypes, but somewhat in a different way put. Though, I again as before am in favor of this. Now, I disagree with the notion that they are one- trick classes, its just the fact yes, that they are forced to use the same method or combinations of invested pacts BEFORE they engage over and over and over again until it either eventually works, fail, or they die. Mostly it will fail or they will die because of it. Now, using id's is not actually the thing, ORDER ENTOURAGE KILL works just as good, after all, they are in your entourage list when you type the command anyway. I am still in favor of somethin like Solution 2 that is being proposed, but that this be extended to both Nihilists and Celestines for balancing reasons of investing powers. ---on 11/15 @ 05:55 writes: That's exactly what I meant with one trick classes. Although they have lots of different strategies that could work, they are locked into one strategy only on repeat, no build up, no flow, no evolution of combat. If you fail, you stop and try the same exact strategy again because it will probably work eventually, and it would probably take 80 seconds of evasive combat to require the power to switch strategies midfight. Thralls in general need an upgrade to be more involved, because as it stands, 2 seconds of hinder every 8 seconds is the most effective thing they have going for them, by far. They are two of the most unchanged classes since the beginning. ---on 11/22 @ 01:23 writes: I think all 3 are probably fine. I'd suggest just putting thralls on their own balance, like homunculus. Allowing investment changes before each hit would definitely increase the variability of the offense, and while Celestines have actually emerged from this overhaul stronger, Nihilists are definitely weaker and hurting (especially if Ecto is still slated to go). ---on 11/24 @ 09:03 writes: Supported